So I think that this situation that we’re in now could very well

mushroom in the future.

0:00:00 – 0:00:16

You can’t put your head in the sand.

0:00:16 – 0:00:19

I worry about AI and I worry about what’s out on social media.

0:00:19 – 0:00:24

You could lose everything.

0:00:24 – 0:00:27

I just find it’s almost like a dictatorship, you know, it’s kind of

like, it’s like big

0:00:27 – 0:00:32

pharma, big pharma with their drugs.

0:00:32 – 0:00:35

It’s a dictatorship.

0:00:35 – 0:00:36

They are, they are forcing you to do things that take away to me your

individual rights.

0:00:36 – 0:00:54

Human life runs on technology and data, yet we seldom stop to consider

its costs.

0:00:54 – 0:01:00

This is a podcast about the harms the data do.

0:01:00 – 0:01:03

And I put quotations around the term do because it is the one way that

we have been taught

0:01:03 – 0:01:07

to think about technologies and data as a resource which does

something.

0:01:07 – 0:01:12

It’s a resource that to quote F. Scott Fitzgerald, allows us to run

faster, to stretch our arms

0:01:12 – 0:01:18

further.

0:01:18 – 0:01:19

Technology is often thought as a resource that enhances daily life,

allows us to do more

Technology is often thought as a resource that enhances daily life,

allows us to do more

0:01:19 – 0:01:24

and importantly, has value.

0:01:24 – 0:01:26

That value can be expressed in money, time, or however it may be

managed to do, but like

0:01:26 – 0:01:32

all things with value, it’s also a resource that has a cost.

0:01:32 – 0:01:37

It’s that cost that we consider today.

0:01:37 – 0:01:39

There are other ways of understanding the role of technologies and the

data it creates.

0:01:39 – 0:01:44

There are other ways of thinking about and being in relationship to

data ourselves with

0:01:44 – 0:01:48

each other and the world.

0:01:48 – 0:01:51

Today we bring you to the Scholar Square at the University of Western

Ontario, to a workshop

0:01:51 – 0:01:56

that was held as part of the Preventing Data Harms in Canada project

and was funded by

0:01:56 – 0:02:00

the Aging in Data project.

0:02:00 – 0:02:02

I was a postdoctoral research fellow on that project and one of 21

people who came together

0:02:02 – 0:02:07

for the workshop, a group of younger and older adults aged 18 to 30

and 60 to 90 from all

0:02:07 – 0:02:13

backgrounds across London, Ontario.

0:02:13 – 0:02:16

Our goal was to have an in-depth discussion to identify the harms that

technologies caused

Our goal was to have an in-depth discussion to identify the harms that

technologies caused

0:02:16 – 0:02:20

from the excessive collection of personal data, how digitalization has

invaded day-to-day

0:02:20 – 0:02:25

living, and how these harms related to age and what could be done to

resolve them.

0:02:25 – 0:02:30

These are conversations which we hope to extend beyond the Preventing

Data Harms in Canada

0:02:30 – 0:02:34

project and Aging in Data projects, and which we hope draws attention

to new narratives

0:02:34 – 0:02:39

about the relationship between the role of technologies, data, and

age.

0:02:39 – 0:02:43

We are going to run this session until 12, maybe 12.15 to catch up for

lost time.

0:02:43 – 0:02:51

We’re going to have a coffee break at 11.15 roughly, but feel free to

help yourself to

0:02:51 – 0:03:00

have a coffee or tea.

0:03:00 – 0:03:02

Dr. Joanna Redden, Associate Professor and a Director of the Starling

Centre at the University

0:03:02 – 0:03:07

of Western Ontario, as well as myself and our colleague Janelle Allen

are the facilitators

0:03:07 – 0:03:11

for the day.

0:03:11 – 0:03:13

The whole square is a space that seems built for collaboration.

0:03:13 – 0:03:16

It’s a large space with different tables, chairs, whiteboards for

taking notes and monitors

0:03:16 – 0:03:21

for showing a presentation encircled by four thick concrete pillars.

0:03:21 – 0:03:26

While people gravitate towards the lounging chairs that form a circle

in the centre of

0:03:26 – 0:03:30

the room, several individuals take a moment to admire the architecture

and the equipment

0:03:30 – 0:03:34

that we have set up.

0:03:34 – 0:03:36

They can be overheard commenting about the quality of the space and

technology surrounding

0:03:36 – 0:03:40

them, asking questions about where it came from before sitting down.

0:03:40 – 0:03:45

This is exactly the type of space we wanted to create to get

participants or rather our

0:03:45 – 0:03:49

collaborators thinking about their relationship to technology and

data.

0:03:49 – 0:03:54

Alrighty, so essentially for this part in the podcasting section,

we’re basically going

0:03:54 – 0:04:07

to be focusing on themes and like just different concepts of the

themes that we’ve already

0:04:07 – 0:04:12

discussed and kind of more prompting them further.

0:04:12 – 0:04:17

After the first half of the workshops, eight individuals expressed

wanting to talk more

0:04:17 – 0:04:21

about the harms they believed were related to technologies and the

creation of data.

0:04:21 – 0:04:25

The purpose?

0:04:25 – 0:04:26

To share their stories so that others could hear them, relate and work

towards creating

0:04:26 – 0:04:30

a space or sonic space of collective learning and healing.

0:04:30 – 0:04:35

I went on it because my professional organization, RNEO, was quite

active on Twitter and they

0:04:35 – 0:04:41

wanted us to be on it and tweet things.

0:04:41 – 0:04:46

But anyway, I was on it for a year or two and I followed social

justice things and some

0:04:46 – 0:04:52

politicians and I’m kind of a left-wing type, but I got kicked right

off it and I don’t

0:04:52 – 0:05:03

really even know, I never said anything vulgar or hateful, but they

cancelled me.

0:05:03 – 0:05:10

Who’s they now?

0:05:10 – 0:05:11

Twitter.

0:05:11 – 0:05:12

Oh, Twitter.

0:05:12 – 0:05:13

Or X.

0:05:13 – 0:05:14

And I don’t have a clue why and I wasn’t too upset about it, but it

makes me wonder.

0:05:14 – 0:05:23

They just sent a notice saying, well, that I’m cancelled.

0:05:23 – 0:05:28

They cancelled me.

0:05:28 – 0:05:29

What would you say was your response, why did they cancel you, it had

to be some hook?

0:05:29 – 0:05:33

No, as I remember, they didn’t really say.

0:05:33 – 0:05:36

And also, at the beginning when Trump became president, they were

saying that maybe it

0:05:36 – 0:05:45

still happens that people would check your phone and your social

media, Canadians going

0:05:45 – 0:05:51

across the border.

0:05:51 – 0:05:52

So I’ve been, because I’m probably the odd anti-Trump thing, or

anyway, I’m a socially

0:05:52 – 0:06:00

progressive person, so I, anyway, so I’ve avoided crossing the border

because I’m a

0:06:00 – 0:06:11

little nervous of that and I don’t know if it’s a valid reason or not.

0:06:11 – 0:06:16

I actually got, you know, my news information from Twitter.

0:06:16 – 0:06:25

I verify wherever possible that I got news from Twitter, but then it

just got to the

0:06:25 – 0:06:32

point where everything was just so nasty surrounding the election, the

US elections and all the

0:06:32 – 0:06:41

misinformation out there that I just had to cancel my ex account

because it was just making

0:06:41 – 0:06:49

me angry all the time.

0:06:49 – 0:06:50

For me, it was just the sheer misinformation that was being kind of

bantied about and it

0:06:50 – 0:06:59

just, I found it kind of consuming in some ways, so I had to, I just

had to stop because,

0:06:59 – 0:07:10

I mean, especially, I think, when January 6 happened and all that kind

of stuff and

0:07:10 – 0:07:18

then moving forward from that, yeah, it was just too much.

0:07:18 – 0:07:25

It was just too much for me to take, I mean, it wasn’t quite keeping

me awake at night,

0:07:25 – 0:07:31

but I think at some point it did consume my days, particularly,

January 6 would be a particular

0:07:31 – 0:07:40

example of that, not just what I saw on social media, but what I saw

on the different news

0:07:40 – 0:07:47

stations and stuff and even the, many of the news stations, and I’ll

refer to Fox, were

0:07:47 – 0:07:59

just spewing so much misinformation and it’s maddening and there’s

really nothing we can

0:07:59 – 0:08:06

do about it, I don’t think.

0:08:06 – 0:08:09

So I just turned it off basically by canceling my account.

0:08:09 – 0:08:14

I’m getting feeds on Facebook and I’m not going to give up my Facebook

because I have

0:08:14 – 0:08:21

family and friends on there and that’s partly how we communicate and

celebrate each other

0:08:21 – 0:08:26

and things like that, but I’ve been spending many a time just blocking

because I’m getting

0:08:26 – 0:08:34

feeds from people, I don’t know, and right now with the political

situation in the States

0:08:34 – 0:08:40

I’m getting a lot of American, well it’s American of course, I’m

getting a lot of the American

0:08:40 – 0:08:45

feeds, right, the political feeds and stuff like that, and so I’m just

blocking these

0:08:45 – 0:08:51

people and I think we need to, people need to just start taking the

time to, yes, it’s

0:08:51 – 0:08:58

a pain in the butt, but I think people really need to start, okay, I’m

blocking this person

0:08:58 – 0:09:03

and I’m blocking this person, I don’t know this person so why would I,

you know, I don’t

0:09:03 – 0:09:07

care what their political opinions, I do, because it affects our

world, but I don’t

0:09:07 – 0:09:13

need to see it on my feed, it doesn’t concern me, there’s nothing I

can do about it.

0:09:13 – 0:09:20

So I’ve spent a lot of time these days just blocking stuff off my feed

and trying not

0:09:20 – 0:09:27

to get sucked into, because I have, just like most people I think, but

I’ll see you in a

0:09:27 – 0:09:33

reel and I just kind of get sucked into it or I might click on a video

or something just

0:09:33 – 0:09:39

to see and I find myself getting sucked in and wasting a lot of time,

so I’m trying to

0:09:39 – 0:09:45

cut back on that and just block people and I’m like no, I’m not

looking at those reels

cut back on that and just block people and I’m like no, I’m not

looking at those reels

0:09:45 – 0:09:51

and you know, I’ve been caught one too many times losing five minutes

of valuable time

0:09:51 – 0:09:57

just looking at stupidity, so I think people really need to manage

their social feeds and

0:09:57 – 0:10:06

I don’t think most people do, they see it and they just, they might go

on to the next

0:10:06 – 0:10:11

thing, they don’t necessarily get sucked in, but it’s there, but there

are ways to manage

0:10:11 – 0:10:17

the social feeds and other types of content and I think that people

should be encouraged

0:10:17 – 0:10:27

to do so.

0:10:27 – 0:10:29

I don’t do Twitter or X or whatever it is, but the comment about

crossing the border

0:10:29 – 0:10:44

for the ability of border security guards being able to go into your

phone or your laptop

0:10:44 – 0:10:52

or whatever media you have to look at what you have done say on social

media, I feel,

0:10:52 – 0:11:00

I really feel strongly social media is a very detrimental thing in the

sense that so many

0:11:00 – 0:11:10

of us myself and that are not even aware of what we’re revealing about

ourselves and ever

0:11:10 – 0:11:20

since the so-called information or misinformation came out about the

fact that US Customs or

0:11:20 – 0:11:29

security people could go into your phone and I don’t know whether I

believe they do or

0:11:29 – 0:11:36

they did or they didn’t because for me it’s so much information.

0:11:36 – 0:11:42

I worry about AI and I worry about what’s out on social media, what I

put out there

0:11:42 – 0:11:47

when there are those scrolling comments on the reels or whatever, it

has made me very

0:11:47 – 0:11:54

careful what I say if I click on it whether I like it or I don’t like

it especially when

0:11:54 – 0:12:03

it’s a political thing simply because I don’t know what could happen.

0:12:03 – 0:12:09

What can be what in information AI is gathering about me that could be

misinterpreted by somebody

0:12:09 – 0:12:18

else or used against me and it has made me, it feeds on fear and if it

has made me afraid

0:12:18 – 0:12:29

yes it has but it feeds on fear and insecurity which is what it wants,

what it wants and

0:12:29 – 0:12:37

if you start looking at negative things I certainly know on Facebook

and other things

0:12:37 – 0:12:42

they will only show you negative things if you are a fashionista say

and you love fashion

0:12:42 – 0:12:52

and you click on the fashion well it just continually feeds and feeds

that thing and

0:12:52 – 0:12:58

unless you have self control and to say enough is enough for today so

I am, well I think

0:12:58 – 0:13:08

it’s a great resource, it’s not monitored well, there seem to be no

guidelines, no rules,

0:13:08 – 0:13:18

there’s no consequence for bad behavior on it, for unkind things being

said, I just find

0:13:18 – 0:13:27

it very scary.

0:13:27 – 0:13:29

Well even when you Google something about two minutes later all these

pop ups appear

0:13:29 – 0:13:42

like so they’re monitoring like I’ll just use maybe a clothing piece

of clothing and

0:13:42 – 0:13:50

all of a sudden I get all these ads.

0:13:50 – 0:13:52

Yeah you just have to Google a city say you might like to visit in

Europe yeah you know

0:13:52 – 0:13:57

Innsbruck or whatever and next thing you know you’re getting listings

of all the hotels

0:13:57 – 0:14:03

that are there in Innsbruck.

0:14:03 – 0:14:07

One time I thought I was hacked and I don’t think I don’t know if I

really was or not

0:14:07 – 0:14:11

I don’t think so but they the internet picked up on that and were

sending me and I guess

0:14:11 – 0:14:20

I signed up for some McAfee or something and I just cancelled it now

but a year or two

0:14:20 – 0:14:27

later but it was yeah I was I felt I was taken advantage of bought

something that I didn’t

0:14:27 – 0:14:37

need or want at that minute I thought it was a solution yeah.

0:14:37 – 0:14:45

I was just going to add that I think she touched upon something that’s

very real and it’s

0:14:45 – 0:14:54

that and it’s not just seniors you know or those less less at more of

a disadvantage

0:14:54 – 0:15:01

that are vulnerable but we’re all vulnerable and we saw that not all

that long ago when

0:15:01 – 0:15:06

Rogers went down and the internet went down and people can get money

out of the bank people

0:15:06 – 0:15:12

couldn’t do any of that and that’s putting all of us at risk and it’s

a very high risk

0:15:12 – 0:15:22

I think is it likely to happen I don’t know but can you imagine if

that happened globally

0:15:22 – 0:15:32

how would people survive you can’t do anything without machines now my

husband and I are

0:15:32 – 0:15:40

going to the same concert and I keep bringing this back but you know

so we’ll walk through

0:15:40 – 0:15:44

the door but I have the tickets on my phone so if he wants to go up to

the seat and they’re

0:15:44 – 0:15:51

checking tickets he can’t do that because they’re on my phone now you

can’t transfer

0:15:51 – 0:15:55

them but what a pain in the took us that is and and and but even more

than that though

0:15:55 – 0:16:02

is I think globally we’re we’re we’re extremely vulnerable you know to

bring the all systems

0:16:02 – 0:16:11

crashing down that’s why I won’t do everything I won’t but I think you

know you won’t but

0:16:11 – 0:16:20

other people are oh I know in that way but that’s why I won’t write

because because

0:16:20 – 0:16:25

of that very thing but I don’t want that information and you know what

do you still you still even

0:16:25 – 0:16:32

though you haven’t participated you’re still affected by it because if

everything shut

0:16:32 – 0:16:37

down if everything shuts down right what do you do and I’m not I’m not

a doomsayer and

0:16:37 – 0:16:42

I don’t these thoughts don’t keep me awake at night but I do believe

that that there’s

0:16:42 – 0:16:48

a certain reality into it you can’t put your head in the sand I mean

you don’t you don’t

0:16:48 – 0:16:55

say this is going to happen but you’d be crazy to think that it

wouldn’t yeah exactly you

0:16:55 – 0:17:00

know Amazon you know where do the old hardware stores go back in the

day right all the little

0:17:00 – 0:17:05

hardware stores handy-andy and stuff like this it’s all gone so it’s

all under some

0:17:05 – 0:17:11

one super duper guy that runs everything right it’s progress or so

people might think but

0:17:11 – 0:17:20

what I’m advocating for here is no it wasn’t broken the first place so

why are you dismantling

0:17:20 – 0:17:30

it can the post door-to-door service the door-to-door service what’s

behind it and I see two things

0:17:30 – 0:17:40

and I hate sounding like a conspiracy person but I do believe that

there are two major

0:17:40 – 0:17:48

competitors that most people don’t realize with Canada Post who also

are in the business

0:17:48 – 0:17:54

of communication one being Rogers and the other being Bell they would

both dearly love

0:17:54 – 0:18:02

to monopolize the way people communicate and I’ve even they’re biased

reporting on the

0:18:02 – 0:18:10

you know the CTV news channel it’s just been totally wrong some of the

things that they’ve

0:18:10 – 0:18:18

reported so coming back to people who are fearful of personal banking

yes I’m I just

0:18:18 – 0:18:27

won’t do it it’s it’s because of over the phone or you know in fact I

don’t even like

0:18:27 – 0:18:34

going up to the the machines to get my money or put money in I still

don’t rather deal

0:18:34 – 0:18:40

with a human more blood person but again this is one of the downsides

to AI is that it is

0:18:40 – 0:18:51

putting people out of work it’s taking jobs away but we’ve even gone

into the bank and

0:18:51 – 0:18:57

there’s somebody standing at the door and she goes oh why don’t you

use our machines

0:18:57 – 0:19:02

you know I want to speak to a teller right and the very latest I’ve

heard about AI is

0:19:02 – 0:19:08

that if you pull up to McDonald’s you know we have a nice friendly gal

who gives us our

0:19:08 – 0:19:15

coffee when we pull up every morning they’re going to be replaced it’s

all going to be

0:19:15 – 0:19:19

done automatically and these are entry-level jobs like Java and for

young people that’s

0:19:19 – 0:19:27

you know we have to ask ourselves also how much of these kinds of

changes with artificial

0:19:27 – 0:19:35

intelligence really leads to the homelessness problem because I can

certainly imagine that

0:19:35 – 0:19:41

many of the people who are coming along will not be able to because

there are a number

0:19:41 – 0:19:48

of younger people still have difficulty with a lot of the artificial

intelligence components

0:19:48 – 0:19:55

that they have to master how many of these people will not be able to

enter the job market

0:19:55 – 0:20:00

because they’re not going to be the jobs exactly what they needed to

do and are they going

0:20:00 – 0:20:05

to become homeless yes yes certainly not going to be able to afford

home so yeah that becomes

0:20:05 – 0:20:14

a problem so I think that this situation that we’re in now could very

well mushroom in the

0:20:14 – 0:20:22

future and I don’t know how they’re going to deal with that so we’ve

talked about how

0:20:22 – 0:20:37

quickly this technology is growing particularly AI we’ve had we’ve had

different technologies

0:20:37 – 0:20:43

growing for decades now but AI has been growing particularly quickly

and and I think that that’s

0:20:43 – 0:20:50

that’s and probably not the right term but it’s certainly putting

people in a have and

0:20:50 – 0:20:55

have not and and there’s a little bit of possibly of ageism there too

there are many many seniors

0:20:55 – 0:21:03

who are not comfortable with computers I have a friend that hasn’t

known a phone till until

0:21:03 – 0:21:09

two years ago not not because she couldn’t deal with computers but she

just didn’t want

0:21:09 – 0:21:12

to have a cell phone and and yeah and I’ve mentioned this before but

you have things

0:21:12 – 0:21:16

like QR scans and things like that that people just you know now you

can’t go to the to the

0:21:16 – 0:21:23

Canada Lifeplace for a concert it has to be on your phone you can’t

print your ticket

0:21:23 – 0:21:28

and that’s imposed upon people and I think that’s very unfair to those

who are not in

0:21:28 – 0:21:34

tune necessarily in tune with the technology and it might be a

minority but but but still

0:21:34 – 0:21:40

they they they you know just as much right to go to a concert or park

their car or anything

0:21:40 – 0:21:45

else as well as anybody else but and you know like go to go park your

car in a in a in a

0:21:45 – 0:21:52

public parking lot you either have to use the machines or they want

you to use your

0:21:52 – 0:21:57

your what’s the name of that app but honk yes to to to pay for your

parking and not

0:21:57 – 0:22:06

everybody either wants to or or or is able to use that technology so I

think that we

0:22:06 – 0:22:14

have to be very very careful because I think with the speed that

things are going I think

0:22:14 – 0:22:20

people are being left behind and I think and that’s not a good thing

and you have to keep

0:22:20 – 0:22:26

up with it you have to keep buying new phones I had I couldn’t I had

it like it one that

0:22:26 – 0:22:34

I got in 2017 and just this past year I got a new one because it

couldn’t do the QR codes

0:22:34 – 0:22:40

it couldn’t do a lot of things and I couldn’t use many apps so it

still worked but anyway

0:22:40 – 0:22:49

I find that with things like QR codes and you want you have to fill

out it you have

0:22:49 – 0:22:59

to fill out a document but the only way you can do it online I find it

very discriminatory

0:22:59 – 0:23:03

yes extremely discriminatory first of all to people who are not

computer savvy I think

0:23:03 – 0:23:11

it’s discriminatory to people who come from other other countries who

maybe English isn’t

0:23:11 – 0:23:17

their first language I mean governments companies everybody is making

are for are forcing you

0:23:17 – 0:23:31

to do something they’re taking away your human rights basically I

don’t want a cell phone

0:23:31 – 0:23:37

I don’t want a cell phone yeah I don’t want a computer but I still

should be able to pick

0:23:37 – 0:23:44

up a phone or communication device of something and say I want to fill

out a form and don’t

0:23:44 – 0:23:53

give me this nonsense about saving trees we’re past that point with

all the recycling that

0:23:53 – 0:23:59

we have I just find it’s almost like a dictatorship you know it’s kind

of like it’s like big pharma

0:23:59 – 0:24:09

big pharma with their drugs it’s a dictatorship they are they are

forcing you to do things

0:24:09 – 0:24:14

to take away to me your individual rights so there’s sometimes I don’t

want to do it

0:24:14 – 0:24:22

I don’t want to fill out that form online I don’t want and it’s not

because I can’t

0:24:22 – 0:24:30

it’s because you’re giving me no option you’re giving me no choice and

and maybe I don’t

0:24:30 – 0:24:38

have somebody there to help me you know you do something so I just I

just think away your

0:24:38 – 0:24:46

rights are being taken away yeah it’s nice to have somebody who can

help we can you can

0:24:46 – 0:24:51

communicate with on how to move these things past so you don’t have to

put up with the

0:24:51 – 0:24:56

negatives that you know I know but I’m not my freedom of choice is

being taken away that

0:24:56 – 0:25:02

well you choose still don’t you who you have your friends and who

aren’t your friends and

0:25:02 – 0:25:06

who what you turn on the lights and I know but I’m not I’m not talking

about my friends

0:25:06 – 0:25:10

I’m talking about a simple an application of some kind which is fair I

have technology

0:25:10 – 0:25:19

affects our lives yeah and it’s taking away the choice from a lot of

people a lot of people

0:25:19 – 0:25:25

who number one they choose not to do it that way or simply don’t have

the means resources

0:25:25 – 0:25:30

or or the help to do it so very true and how I guess lean into like

how that makes you

0:25:30 – 0:25:36

feel perhaps inadequate angry yes helpless helpless scared and when

you’re helpless you’re

0:25:36 – 0:25:45

scared anxiety level rises that’s when you make stupid mistakes when

you like like your

0:25:45 – 0:25:54

Bill Gates mistake I mean the anxiety thing it kind of over like a

head over the head

0:25:54 – 0:26:01

I could not believe that I was a guy who is on eight hours yes but I’m

just saying it

0:26:01 – 0:26:08

feeds into our inadequacies and we make choices out of fear and

anxiety and and it’s the immediate

0:26:08 – 0:26:19

it’s the now and you’ve got to do it and there’s no other way and if

you could just take that

0:26:19 – 0:26:24

deep breath and step away for a moment you probably would make a

better choice some of

0:26:24 – 0:26:31

us have been able to do it I’ve I’ve been able to do it a couple of

times but I’ve also

0:26:31 – 0:26:37

fed into it where I was just lucky once that somebody happened to walk

through that door

0:26:37 – 0:26:43

and stop me mm-hmm and just say what are you doing and I was in this

panic and they were

0:26:43 – 0:26:47

going wait take a deep breath step back bang bang shut it down now so

I get the feeling

0:26:47 – 0:26:56

that a lot of people get their experience or their education by

experimenting themselves

0:26:56 – 0:27:02

doing things you know I reluctant to do that because I’m afraid I’m

like yeah I agree with

0:27:02 – 0:27:10

you completely and yeah I agree with you quite like something that I

need to do yeah and

0:27:10 – 0:27:16

the other thing is happening too is that I use word and I’m at a

certain level of work

0:27:16 – 0:27:23

because when it was installed in the computer there are always new

versions of this thing

0:27:23 – 0:27:28

coming out and so when I talk to people for example at SLR all right

and they’re putting

0:27:28 – 0:27:35

together PowerPoints they say it’s so easy how come you’re finding

easy and I’m not because

0:27:35 – 0:27:39

they have the latest version of word right my version will not do what

their version

0:27:39 – 0:27:44

is doing I’m saying why am I retarded in this way it’s because I

didn’t buy I just am using

0:27:44 – 0:27:52

an older version well how would I know that now I have no idea whether

it’s going to go

0:27:52 – 0:27:58

to this point but uh your cell phone could your cell phone be affected

in the same way

0:27:58 – 0:28:05

I don’t know but the reason why I mentioned this is that my grandson

now and I’m sure

0:28:05 – 0:28:12

that this is true with many of the people in the younger generation he

no longer carries

0:28:12 – 0:28:16

a wallet or any money with them everything is on the phone well that

ever happens to

0:28:16 – 0:28:22

your phone you lose everything well you can’t do anything you can’t do

anything you can’t

0:28:22 – 0:28:28

even call somebody to find out what to do about it you better be

careful how much you

0:28:28 – 0:28:34

put on these devices because you could be in very serious trouble and

you won’t know

0:28:34 – 0:28:40

how to get out of it right I cannot get enough personal education for

myself because I find

0:28:40 – 0:28:50

if I go to somebody else for help like Rogers or Bell they’ll fix the

problem for me but

0:28:50 – 0:28:57

I can’t follow what they’re doing yeah there’s you know I need a

tutorial or something can

0:28:57 – 0:29:03

you do this right they don’t have the patience to show along with that

in a slightly different

0:29:03 – 0:29:08

sense the average rate of talking is 120 words per minute what I’m

finding on television

0:29:08 – 0:29:15

a lot of other people a lot of the younger people speak more quickly

and as you get older

0:29:15 – 0:29:22

it becomes more difficult to process the messages that they’re giving

you because they speak

0:29:22 – 0:29:27

more quickly than 120 words oh yeah okay so it’s just too much

information that’s given

0:29:27 – 0:29:35

to you all at one time and I remember when I was trying to get

information about how

0:29:35 – 0:29:41

to do something on the computer and I asked one of the people at

Western how to go about

0:29:41 – 0:29:46

doing this I counted the number of steps that he was going through in

total there were about

0:29:46 – 0:29:54

eight or nine steps that he listed for me then now how in the world do

you expect me

0:29:54 – 0:29:59

to remember eight or nine steps all at one time you can’t you can’t

and you certainly

0:29:59 – 0:30:10

can’t I think follow someone who’s got your and they’re just fixing it

you can’t do that

0:30:10 – 0:30:16

so you’re writing it down you couldn’t write because if your computer

is gone you’re doing

0:30:16 – 0:30:21

it by hand you couldn’t write that fast just the other day while I was

using my computer

0:30:21 – 0:30:35

because I use the computer a lot for writing articles and as I was

using the computer suddenly

0:30:35 – 0:30:43

on the screen this message appeared and what it said along with voice

is that if I call

0:30:43 – 0:30:52

this number that’s on the screen I will get in touch with someone in

Microsoft who will

0:30:52 – 0:30:58

in turn remove this message because the screen was locked all right so

I had no idea whether

0:30:58 – 0:31:07

this message was legitimate or not as far as Microsoft was concerned

so anyway I did

0:31:07 – 0:31:13

call the number and I talked to someone but then he started asking for

additional information

0:31:13 – 0:31:18

and I said wait before I give you any information I want to contact

this company that I already

0:31:18 – 0:31:25

subscribed to that’s supposed to protect me against viruses so I hung

up on him and I

0:31:25 – 0:31:32

called this company and I told this company what was happening and

what I was told is

0:31:32 – 0:31:38

what you have experienced is ransomware and unfortunately because they

are designed to

0:31:38 – 0:31:47

protect me against viruses they don’t consider ransom attacks as a

virus so where is my protection

0:31:47 – 0:31:57

I don’t have any so then I had to call around to find out what I do to

get rid of this thing

0:31:57 – 0:32:02

because this company wasn’t going to help me at all so because I’m

affiliated with the

0:32:02 – 0:32:08

university I called the university’s number to talk to the person who

provides information

0:32:08 – 0:32:13

on technology of operating computers and all they could suggest to me

unfortunately was

0:32:13 – 0:32:21

I should take it to a place like Best Buy and they would eliminate

everything on my

0:32:21 – 0:32:26

computer starting all over again I said I can’t do that you’re going

to eliminate work

0:32:26 – 0:32:33

that I’ve been working on for years something is gone this was just it

was impossible I

0:32:33 – 0:32:40

wasn’t going to do it so unfortunately I called around and I was very

fortunate and lucky

0:32:40 – 0:32:46

to find apparently it might have been the one person in London and he

said all you have

0:32:46 – 0:32:55

to do is press the alternate key and the f4 key simultaneously and

hold them both down

0:32:55 – 0:33:05

and your screen will be freed and it worked and you didn’t lose any I

didn’t do anything

0:33:05 – 0:33:12

other than that so I think it’s a very important message for people to

know because that kind

0:33:12 – 0:33:18

of thing can happen to anybody especially if you’re doing a lot of

banking with your

0:33:18 – 0:33:24

computer you could lose everything if you’re paying your income tax

and all that you could

0:33:24 – 0:33:29

lose everything so if you know that simple step that can save you and

it’s amazing how

0:33:29 – 0:33:37

many other people did not know that simple step so I think it’s

important that people

0:33:37 – 0:33:45

be aware of the fact that you might have to hunt around for a lot of

people who are sufficiently

0:33:45 – 0:33:50

computer savvy to know what to do when you run into problems that are

today becoming

0:33:50 – 0:33:56

very common and so at least you have one step that you can employ now

who knows when they

0:33:56 – 0:34:04

update the current version of word whether that will even work in the

future I don’t

0:34:04 – 0:34:10

know but these the kinds of things that you need to be on top of

however you get there

0:34:10 – 0:34:17

I don’t know but it is important to be aware of some of the safeguards

that might be available

0:34:17 – 0:34:23

if word does grow in the future what to do to protect yourself against

these kinds of

0:34:23 – 0:34:29

schemes the same thing happened to us with getting scammed by

Microsoft so my husband

0:34:29 – 0:34:36

phoned really really nice and he acted quite quickly same thing I did

pick up the phone

0:34:36 – 0:34:43

to call yeah and he gave his ID number where he worked at blah blah

blah how can I help

0:34:43 – 0:34:51

you and then he says oh can you hang up the phone beyond your cell

phone well yes and

0:34:51 – 0:34:57

I thought that was kind of weird and I thought he’s scamming because

we don’t do banking

0:34:57 – 0:35:02

on our computer or on our phones but I thought he’s probably scamming

his cell phone to see

0:35:02 – 0:35:07

if we have banking information or anything so then he said oh I’ll

phone you back on

0:35:07 – 0:35:13

your home phone so then he says and then he says um where do you do

your banking at oh

0:35:13 – 0:35:22

John told me he says well what’s your numbers and then I’m there yeah

yeah and he’s just

0:35:22 – 0:35:29

being too nice like one of the places I called they looked up the

number that they gave me

0:35:29 – 0:35:35

is this in fact Microsoft and they said no this is not a Microsoft

number if Microsoft

0:35:35 – 0:35:40

would never give you that that kind of direction exactly so that’s how

you know that it is

0:35:40 – 0:35:46

but you have to again know how to clear how did you clear how did you

get rid of it well

0:35:46 – 0:35:51

we have a protection through Staples and then we just phone so Staples

knew how to do it

0:35:51 – 0:35:59

because the service I’m going to get that’s the problem well we had to

phone one of their

0:35:59 – 0:36:04

technicians like yeah but that’s what I mean you know you have to give

him permission to

0:36:04 – 0:36:09

go in your computer yeah yeah yeah stuff like that you you pay for

that through Staples

0:36:09 – 0:36:15

yeah something like 20 dollars a month how much 20 dollars a month

that’s very good because

0:36:15 – 0:36:21

the company I’m going through didn’t know how to do it Staples did he

was very persuasive

0:36:21 – 0:36:30

you’re very authoritative and he told me that he could trace where a

phone call was being

0:36:30 – 0:36:38

monitored it was a phone box and then he said they were downloading

child porn and I told

0:36:38 – 0:36:50

you I said what have you been up to nothing good but it was then when

he asked for my

0:36:50 – 0:36:58

bank account number that I just got was the kicker it also happened to

us when COVID was

0:36:58 – 0:37:07

on there was email went out under John’s name to his friends saying

I’m in the hospital

0:37:07 – 0:37:15

and I need money okay so your email got hacked yeah okay and a couple

people phoned and then

0:37:15 – 0:37:23

where did you go back to Staples it was Staples who told me that he

could investigate it told

0:37:23 – 0:37:29

me where I was being hacked from three different places one was the

Ukraine the other was Buffalo

0:37:29 – 0:37:38

New York and then there was I think San Francisco and California three

different areas they were

0:37:38 – 0:37:46

all onto me at once but that happened quite a bit I think when COVID

was on people were

0:37:46 – 0:37:54

taking advantage of that and that’s an absolute frustration yeah we

affirm why I do not do

0:37:54 – 0:38:00

online banking if I pay my bills I do it through the post office

that’s right

0:38:00 – 0:38:15

so as we get older as adults we’re not supposed to continue to get

upset we’ll have a heart

0:38:15 – 0:38:21

attack so you try to keep a calm even this set of ways of looking at

things but when

0:38:21 – 0:38:31

something like this happens it can really affect so much of your life

is very difficult

0:38:31 – 0:38:36

to remain peaceful and calm yeah so these kinds of things are very

upsetting and are

0:38:36 – 0:38:42

likely we’re going to be experiencing more of this stuff in the future

are they recording

0:38:42 – 0:38:47

your voice so they get the proper sounds so they can come up with an

old message making

0:38:47 – 0:38:52

it sound like you yep so you have to be careful how many words you use

and usually it’s a

0:38:52 – 0:38:59

keyword like yeah yes the word yes or something sounds that you made

well technology keeps

0:38:59 – 0:39:09

getting smarter and smarter and we don’t always get the opportunity to

keep up on it but all

0:39:09 – 0:39:16

I can say is be aware if you really want to use the computer to store

all kinds of information

0:39:16 – 0:39:23

because if you continue to do that you might find yourself in the

future in difficulty

0:39:23 – 0:39:29

I would use for mistrustful I think that’s what you know I described

myself this lady

0:39:29 – 0:39:38

came up and asked me what the definition of a comradian is somebody

who’s just downright

0:39:38 – 0:39:46

pissed off most of it so it is I guess maybe it’s with experience and

when we people our

0:39:46 – 0:39:58

age remember what life was like back in the same when I first came to

London I mean downtown

0:39:58 – 0:40:06

was a was a place to be in in Dundas Street on a Saturday morning just

you couldn’t walk

0:40:06 – 0:40:12

a straight line to get from Talbot Street to to Wellington because of

the number of people

0:40:12 – 0:40:18

that were downtown shopping and now of course it’s it’s it’s

depressing so it’s a feeling

0:40:18 – 0:40:26

and asking myself the question am I stupid you know well it’s fear of

looking stupid

0:40:26 – 0:40:36

nobody wants to look stupid yeah and and yet I realize I look at you

and we’re not stupid

0:40:36 – 0:40:44

and I’m so happy to see that they’re trying to ban social media for

young people because

0:40:44 – 0:40:59

get out and play go to the park like go see your friends like and I

really worry about

0:40:59 – 0:41:08

what it’s doing to our young people yes I really worry about the next

generation we

0:41:08 – 0:41:13

have great nieces that are four and a half I when we wonder you know I

wonder how are

0:41:13 – 0:41:23

they kind of information are they gonna have going going forward yes

you’re taught things

0:41:23 – 0:41:30

at school but but how much of the misinformation are they gonna be

subject to in it and how

0:41:30 – 0:41:36

are they gonna get through things and like I’ve often wondered and you

might be the person

0:41:36 – 0:41:42

to answer this but in my day when I was in high school you know I had

a backpack full

0:41:42 – 0:41:50

of full of hardcover books to bring home and bring back to school

every day and now I think

0:41:50 – 0:41:57

you work more with laptops do you know in most cases and and and it’s

it just you know

0:41:57 – 0:42:06

that just shows how things are changing and yet you have parents

trying to limit screen

0:42:06 – 0:42:12

time for the kids and things like that but yet the kids have to have

laptops for school

0:42:12 – 0:42:18

how does that affect those they can’t afford the school such things

right and and and there’s

0:42:18 – 0:42:25

just so many ramifications for you for young people now I think it

will be interesting

0:42:25 – 0:42:31

to watch the the journey my nieces journey because I can’t having

lived in the time that

0:42:31 – 0:42:45

I did having grown up in the time that I did I can’t fathom how

they’re going to to manage

0:42:45 – 0:42:53

to get their all their information and stuff and especially if you

know libraries are now

0:42:53 – 0:42:59

are you know are in some ways at risk and things like that and I’m a

bit I’m a bit I’m

0:42:59 – 0:43:05

a bit to blame for that I do have a coba at home I read I read I read

books as well but

0:43:05 – 0:43:09

I have a coba at home and all these all these little things that you

know I’ve always liked

0:43:09 – 0:43:16

technology and I think it’s great but but I’m just as guilty as

anybody else of of changing

0:43:16 – 0:43:22

the world to what it has become which is not a bad thing but but it’ll

be very very interesting

0:43:22 – 0:43:30

to see over the next 20 years considering how much like AI has grown

in it’s been around

0:43:30 – 0:43:38

for a while but but the the the popularity of it now like it’s it just

seems like it’s

0:43:38 – 0:43:45

just popped up in the last few years even though it’s been around for

quite some time

0:43:45 – 0:43:52

it will be extremely interesting to to watch the youth grow and

develop in that environment

0:43:52 – 0:44:01

it might be a good thing we don’t know leaders we need the leaders

it’ll be very interesting

0:44:01 – 0:44:08

to watch yes

0:44:08 – 0:44:18

so the frustrated part again I keep using the word frustration comes

from having somebody

0:44:18 – 0:44:23

who will have the patience the time to explain things yeah yeah yeah

well talking about the

0:44:23 – 0:44:33

chat box is the correct term here and this is related to it but this

is somewhat indirect

0:44:33 – 0:44:40

what’s happening now with a lot of the hotels around the country they

they have these 800

0:44:40 – 0:44:48

numbers that you can call in order to make a reservation at one time

these 800 numbers

0:44:48 – 0:44:53

were directly connected with that that hotel or at least the the group

that belonged right

0:44:53 – 0:45:00

now there are a number of private companies that have these 800

numbers that are not connected

0:45:00 – 0:45:08

to the hotel I don’t like call centers that’s right but they’re

private so I made an arrangement

0:45:08 – 0:45:16

with one of these 800 numbers I thought that it was connected to the

hotel it was a private

0:45:16 – 0:45:21

company so I made the arrangement with them and I booked three nights

and they want to

0:45:21 – 0:45:26

pay in advance so I said all right so I gave them the credit card then

what happened is

0:45:26 – 0:45:33

I we just my wife and I decided we’re not going to stay three nights

we’re going to

I we just my wife and I decided we’re not going to stay three nights

we’re going to

0:45:33 – 0:45:37

stay only two so I called the same number back again and that’s when

you start getting

0:45:37 – 0:45:43

these recorded announcements what can I help you with you want to make

a reservation so

0:45:43 – 0:45:51

I wanted to change my reservation from three nights to two that’s not

equipped to answer

0:45:51 – 0:45:57

that kind of question yeah they said either you make a reservation or

you cancel a reservation

0:45:57 – 0:46:03

there’s nothing in between so I called a hotel when I finally found

that number Lisa that’s

0:46:03 – 0:46:09

a private company we can’t do anything for you with that private

company wow so that’s

0:46:09 – 0:46:14

something else you have to be very careful of now try your best to get

ahold of the company

0:46:14 – 0:46:22

itself because if you go through these 800 numbers you never know

whether this is a private

0:46:22 – 0:46:28

firm or a firm that is connected with the chain you’re lucky if you

can even get a hotel

0:46:28 – 0:46:36

phone number that’s what I did that’s why we went I went to the 800

you can get a hotel

0:46:36 – 0:46:41

phone number you can’t even get those I don’t know I don’t know if

they could actually write

0:46:41 – 0:46:48

down answers to all these various problems that are coming up that

that’s a major factor

0:46:48 – 0:46:53

I because obviously you don’t receive manuals anymore anyways or

washing machine you can

0:46:53 – 0:47:00

get an annual so nothing is written down and the fear that I have is

not so much looking

0:47:00 – 0:47:07

stupid but really am I going to erase something am I going to destroy

something so even though

0:47:07 – 0:47:14

you get this assurance no your computer will die on you how do I know

yeah I don’t want

0:47:14 – 0:47:20

to try it out and then find that well it did well we took a course

last fall at one of

0:47:20 – 0:47:27

the libraries and it was put down by the library but the instructors

were from Fanshawe and

0:47:27 – 0:47:33

it was for seniors there was 10 people in our class and we had a

really good time because

0:47:33 – 0:47:38

they were they knew their audience and you know so it wasn’t going

bang bang bang like

0:47:38 – 0:47:44

they took the time and they explained everything to us like most of us

were somewhat computer

0:47:44 – 0:47:51

savvy but it was you know but but most everybody felt pretty at the

end of the course that

0:47:51 – 0:47:59

they had learned something just be aware of what you should not be

putting on your phones

0:47:59 – 0:48:07

and what you should not be putting on your computer in case this

happens because you

0:48:07 – 0:48:12

could find yourself in very deep trouble and what would you say you

know for the purposes

could find yourself in very deep trouble and what would you say you

know for the purposes

0:48:12 – 0:48:17

of someone listening should you be aware of or not continue to use a

wallet your visa

0:48:17 – 0:48:25

cards and other things with you yeah and continue to have at least

some cash in case but don’t

0:48:25 – 0:48:32

put all kinds of valuable information that you are very much in need

of on your computer

0:48:32 – 0:48:40

or on your cell phone I would not do that what I’m building actually

now is something

0:48:40 – 0:48:45

very large but I’m and I just live down the road here somewhere you

know but I’m going

0:48:45 – 0:48:50

to be going to Toronto for three months downtown to find the people

who are going to build

0:48:50 – 0:48:54

this thing I were your world to the next level and that’s that’s why

what’s it called again

0:48:54 – 0:48:59

I were your world okay it’s a warrior world and that’s that’s

basically about all the

0:48:59 – 0:49:05

guys people human beings in the world who understand the most

important thing we can

0:49:05 – 0:49:09

do is work together if we are on that same journey of we want to love

we love our children

0:49:09 – 0:49:16

we love we are not negative energy and in this world now there are

many many people

0:49:16 – 0:49:22

by the millions who are interested in something that is not religious

but it’s religious in

0:49:22 – 0:49:27

a sense by its own way you know you only want to let people have their

sense of what makes

0:49:27 – 0:49:33

me feeling really good you know about I go to church or I do this I

don’t need to go

0:49:33 – 0:49:37

to church I’ve been to church I’ve been to all the things that I’ve

done in the churches

0:49:37 – 0:49:41

but the thing is it’s not it’s about who you are I feed the birdies

every day I listen

0:49:41 – 0:49:48

to some something nice a little bit here and there and I’m building

something you know

0:49:48 – 0:49:52

it’s important to be engaged never quit never say the game is over

because it ain’t over

0:49:52 – 0:49:57

baby until you’re gone until the last moment and those are very

significant moments in

0:49:57 – 0:50:02

your life when you get older and you’re the one who’s got the

experience you can share

0:50:02 – 0:50:06

with your grandchildren and everybody else in the family listen you

know this is not

0:50:06 – 0:50:11

all we got to look at the positive side let’s work on the positive

side that’s what this

0:50:11 – 0:50:16

is all about.

0:50:16 – 0:50:16

What happens when researchers stop asking questions and start

listening?

0:00:00 – 0:00:13

And what happens when the people participating in research become more

than participants,

0:00:13 – 0:00:17

but the co-creators of the research itself?

0:00:17 – 0:00:21

Welcome back to Age and Algorithms.

0:00:21 – 0:00:24

In our first episode, you heard directly from our participants about

their experiences,

0:00:24 – 0:00:28

perspectives and stories.

0:00:28 – 0:00:31

In this episode, we’re stepping behind the microphone to reflect on

the conversations

0:00:31 – 0:00:35

we had, the themes that emerged, and what we noticed when we listened

back to those

0:00:35 – 0:00:39

original recordings that eventually became our first episode.

0:00:39 – 0:00:43

I’m Megan Voll, one of the researchers behind Age and Algorithms, and

the postdoctoral fellow

0:00:43 – 0:00:49

who’s also a part of the Preventing Data Harms in Canada project.

0:00:49 – 0:00:56

I’m Francis, I’ve been working on this project for at least two years,

maybe three now.

0:00:56 – 0:01:02

I’m a PhD candidate in Communication Studies at Concordia University

in Montreal.

0:01:02 – 0:01:08

Hi, I’m Janelle, and I completed my Masters in Media Studies here at

the University of

0:01:08 – 0:01:15

Western Ontario.

0:01:15 – 0:01:17

And I’ve been working on the Data Harms project for two and a half,

approaching three years

0:01:17 – 0:01:23

now, same time as Francis.

0:01:23 – 0:01:26

Together, we’re going to talk a little bit about what it was like to

actually co-produce

0:01:26 – 0:01:29

a podcast with older adults.

0:01:29 – 0:01:31

We’ll reflect on some of the themes and research findings that stood

out to us, the moments

0:01:31 – 0:01:36

that surprised us, and the things we noticed only after stepping back

and listening to

0:01:36 – 0:01:40

the conversations as a whole.

0:01:40 – 0:01:42

Because research doesn’t always unfold neatly.

0:01:42 – 0:01:45

Sometimes it’s in the unexpected comment, the story that takes the

conversation somewhere

0:01:45 – 0:01:50

we didn’t anticipate, or the moment that makes you stop and think when

you hear it again.

0:01:50 – 0:01:56

And that’s what this episode is about, taking a closer look at what we

heard, and what the

0:01:56 – 0:02:00

process of creating age and algorithms, episode 1, with older adults

taught us about doing

0:02:00 – 0:02:05

research with people, rather than simply about them.

0:02:05 – 0:02:10

Okay, so, you know, I wasn’t sure what to think of my focus groups.

0:02:10 – 0:02:19

I think that’s something we established, you know, going back and

forth on the workshop

0:02:19 – 0:02:25

day.

0:02:25 – 0:02:28

But my group really wanted to talk about stories, and the stories of

their experiences with

0:02:28 – 0:02:35

scams.

0:02:35 – 0:02:36

And it was really interesting, because originally, you know, we

started out with, yes, we’re

0:02:36 – 0:02:41

each going to share a story of how we were scammed, and that actually

blossomed out into

0:02:41 – 0:02:48

a bunch of different threads about, you know, redress issues with

tech.

0:02:48 – 0:02:54

And I guess to kind of start off this discussion, I just wanted to get

everyone’s thoughts on

0:02:54 – 0:03:00

the recordings from the podcast and the workshops more generally.

0:03:00 – 0:03:06

In my group, there was a lot of talk about, and discourse about

censorship and politics

0:03:06 – 0:03:14

and the concept that they’re aware that they’re being surveilled, and

they’re aware that their

0:03:14 – 0:03:20

data and their information is being used against them in certain ways

that are causing them

0:03:20 – 0:03:26

to be, like, blacklisted or blocked from certain platforms.

0:03:26 – 0:03:32

And also, around the concept of misinformation, just targeted ads in

some sort of ways and

0:03:32 – 0:03:39

like elements of a feeling of encroaching technological entrapment in

some sort of ways,

0:03:39 – 0:03:48

whether it’s being forced to use the technology to enter into certain

institutions or being

0:03:48 – 0:03:55

forced to use and participate in whatever sort of platforms,

structures and infrastructures

0:03:55 – 0:04:04

to just navigate life and convenience of modern life.

0:04:04 – 0:04:10

And so that was pretty prevalent and an undertone that I think came up

in different ways and

0:04:10 – 0:04:18

was expressed in different ways throughout the discussion in my group.

0:04:18 – 0:04:23

I really loved your group, though, like listening back to the initial

recording and then like

0:04:23 – 0:04:30

in the podcast, putting it together, just because there was so many

threads and it was

0:04:30 – 0:04:36

like you kind of had the full, I don’t want to say the full platter of

data harms, but

0:04:36 – 0:04:41

a good subset of them.

0:04:41 – 0:04:44

You had like digital surveillance, you had, like you said, the

targeted ads.

0:04:44 – 0:04:50

And it was just, it was really interesting to listen to because the

one thing I also

0:04:50 – 0:04:53

noticed was, was I guess how much our conversations ended up

overlapping, you know, listening

0:04:53 – 0:05:00

back to the original recordings and I guess even grouping the

conversational themes, like

0:05:00 – 0:05:06

I just putting the podcast together and then listening back, I just,

I’m really surprised

0:05:06 – 0:05:11

just how similar like themes were or how, even though we started in

scams in my group,

0:05:11 – 0:05:19

a lot of what they were saying about digital literacy, for example,

really spoke to what

0:05:19 – 0:05:25

your participants, Janelle, were saying about, you know, targeted ads

and having to draw

0:05:25 – 0:05:31

boundaries.

0:05:31 – 0:05:32

Like that was another one that I kind of saw and then going back to

digital labor.

0:05:32 – 0:05:37

So there was a lot of overlap and that just really surprised me

because obviously I guess

0:05:37 – 0:05:41

to me it kind of signals there’s something there.

0:05:41 – 0:05:43

There’s a bunch of themes there that are worth, you know, kind of

probing as we develop the

0:05:43 – 0:05:51

series out more.

0:05:51 – 0:05:53

If I can jump in here, I think one of the, one of the things that

really stood out for

0:05:53 – 0:05:59

me and I think it kind of connects what you two are saying is how data

conscious everyone

0:05:59 – 0:06:04

is.

0:06:04 – 0:06:05

But I mean, like everyone knows that data is being collected and that

it has some sort

0:06:05 – 0:06:12

of effect on their lives, whether it’s like, oh, I need to draw

boundaries because I can’t

0:06:12 – 0:06:16

control the amount of content I’ll be watching or just when I cross

the border, I don’t know

0:06:16 – 0:06:22

what I’ll reveal about myself by presenting my iPhone to the border

person, right?

0:06:22 – 0:06:31

There’s like, at some point someone said, you don’t know what I reveal

about myself.

0:06:31 – 0:06:36

I thought it was a very sort of interesting quote because, okay, we

don’t know what we

0:06:36 – 0:06:41

reveal about ourselves, but by saying that, you mentioned that you

know that you’re revealing

0:06:41 – 0:06:47

stuff about yourself, right?

0:06:47 – 0:06:48

So you know that data is being collected and that it has a form of

agency, I guess, that

0:06:48 – 0:06:55

affects us.

0:06:55 – 0:06:56

So I think that level of data consciousness is really interesting and

it is very high.

0:06:56 – 0:07:01

I think that was really surprising.

0:07:01 – 0:07:08

That’s an awesome point and to connect that, like, that’s a perfect

way of encapsulating

0:07:08 – 0:07:13

it like data consciousness.

0:07:13 – 0:07:16

And in connection to that, in a common thread of what was revealed in,

I think, Megan and

0:07:16 – 0:07:23

I are groups, in terms of the effects of having this underlying

consciousness, whether to

0:07:23 – 0:07:31

different extents, however it’s perceived, there was conversation of

affective emotions

0:07:31 – 0:07:40

of fear and disenfranchisement and isolation and alienation to varying

extents, whether

0:07:40 – 0:07:48

it’s in dealing with scams or dealing with just the broad spectrum of

like targeted ads

0:07:48 – 0:07:58

or surveillance censorship, and there’s an implied level of, to an

extent, of people

0:07:58 – 0:08:07

understanding that they have to self-censor and there’s almost this

internalized mechanism

0:08:07 – 0:08:16

going on where there’s an understanding that in participating in the

digital world, there

0:08:16 – 0:08:25

is a level of understanding that people are being put in compromising

situations potentially

0:08:25 – 0:08:32

and so there’s an understanding of having to navigate with, again,

underlying kind of

0:08:32 – 0:08:38

admissions of what’s described as like fear or anxiety.

0:08:38 – 0:08:42

And these anxieties have come out in conversation in our participants

talking about who, many

0:08:42 – 0:08:49

of them are older adults who are fearful of the world and fearful of

the younger generations

0:08:49 – 0:08:56

coming up having to navigate a world which is more heavily digitized

than they have kind

0:08:56 – 0:09:06

of experienced for most of their life, so they’re understanding the

shift that’s going

0:09:06 – 0:09:11

on and all these feelings of anxiety, it’s kind of rooted potentially

in that concept

0:09:11 – 0:09:17

that you brought up data consciousness and understanding that there’s

levels of control

0:09:17 – 0:09:23

and levels of digital structures and there’s potential consequences

and these things are

0:09:23 – 0:09:32

a part of a complex interplay where there’s potential consequences if

you’re not self-censoring

0:09:32 – 0:09:41

and in certain ways, if that makes sense.

0:09:41 – 0:09:45

It does and it is interesting that you brought up two points because

the one thing that I

0:09:45 – 0:09:52

kind of felt and I don’t want to say it as didn’t do well or giving a

negative connotation

0:09:52 – 0:09:57

when I say this, but you had mentioned talking to your group about

effective harms and I

0:09:57 – 0:10:02

know that’s something we’re constantly trying to figure out is like

the emotional impact

know that’s something we’re constantly trying to figure out is like

the emotional impact

0:10:02 – 0:10:07

of falling victim to a scam or having to give your information away,

like there is an emotional

0:10:07 – 0:10:13

impact and we’re really trying to articulate that, but there was the

effective and then

0:10:13 – 0:10:19

there was talking about the younger generation.

0:10:19 – 0:10:22

Now for me, I kept finding in my group I had to keep probing, like I

had to be going, well,

0:10:22 – 0:10:27

how does that make you feel?

0:10:27 – 0:10:28

I had to be like, I kind of felt like a bit like a psychologist

because throughout the

0:10:28 – 0:10:32

recordings you can hear me going, yeah, but can you tell me how you

made, how that made

0:10:32 – 0:10:36

you feel or how did that impact you and it was almost like you had to

kind of pull that

0:10:36 – 0:10:42

or at least in my group, I felt I really had to pull to kind of get

them to make that connection

0:10:42 – 0:10:46

and it was really interesting because very often when I would ask

that, they would default

0:10:46 – 0:10:52

almost to talking about, well, I really worry about the next

generation, whether that’s

0:10:52 – 0:10:59

in respect to labor or how AI is going to take jobs, that was both

interesting and sometimes

0:10:59 – 0:11:05

it was a bit frustrating because I was, I kept thinking like, oh,

that’s great, you’re

it was a bit frustrating because I was, I kept thinking like, oh,

that’s great, you’re

0:11:05 – 0:11:09

talking about the younger generation, but I really want to hear about

your experiences.

0:11:09 – 0:11:15

So I don’t know if anyone has any thoughts about that or anything.

0:11:15 – 0:11:19

Francis does.

0:11:19 – 0:11:20

Francis, I know.

0:11:20 – 0:11:21

Listening to your group at some point, it felt like everyone was

worried for you more

0:11:21 – 0:11:25

than for themselves, right?

0:11:25 – 0:11:26

And like you’re the researcher, you’re supposed to be like the person

in like the position

0:11:26 – 0:11:30

of power in that situation, but like everyone’s like, oh, I’m so sorry

for you.

0:11:30 – 0:11:35

I think that’s wonderful actually.

0:11:35 – 0:11:41

But also like everyone is like offloading this to the next person,

right?

0:11:41 – 0:11:46

I think that connected, that is clearly connected to what Janelle was

saying, that it feels

0:11:46 – 0:11:52

like everyone feels like the solution has to come from themselves.

0:11:52 – 0:11:57

It’s very like individualized.

0:11:57 – 0:12:00

And so if you don’t really know what you should be doing for yourself

and you just, you know,

0:12:00 – 0:12:04

you fear for the next one, you disengage from technology instead of

trying, right?

0:12:04 – 0:12:12

And if everyone’s afraid of trying, then you just like, oh, like, I

won’t even give it

0:12:12 – 0:12:16

a try, but like this person will have to, because if they want a job,

they’ll have to

0:12:16 – 0:12:20

learn how technology works.

0:12:20 – 0:12:21

And like, I’m afraid for them.

0:12:21 – 0:12:23

I think there’s a lot of that.

0:12:23 – 0:12:27

It almost seemed like they were kind of removed, right?

0:12:27 – 0:12:29

Like, because I know you had a lot of thoughts about this, Francis,

and we were talking about

0:12:29 – 0:12:35

it kind of off the recording, but yeah, did you want to dive into that

a little more?

0:12:35 – 0:12:42

At some point, someone says it feels like everyone who is very like

digitally literate

0:12:42 – 0:12:48

or is comfortable with technology, they’re just not afraid to try,

right?

0:12:48 – 0:12:53

They’re willing to tinker and like make mistakes and fail.

0:12:53 – 0:12:59

So there’s definitely this level of comfort with technology that is

required.

0:12:59 – 0:13:03

And I think that is very true, right?

0:13:03 – 0:13:08

Like anyone who considers themselves digitally literate doesn’t

necessarily know everything.

0:13:08 – 0:13:14

Like I would say I have a pretty high level of digital literacy, but I

don’t really understand

0:13:14 – 0:13:19

anything that’s going on.

0:13:19 – 0:13:20

I’m just not afraid to type stuff into Google and try to figure it

out, right?

0:13:20 – 0:13:24

Or ask a question to someone.

0:13:24 – 0:13:28

I think I would frame digital literacy as, you know, not being afraid

to try and just

0:13:28 – 0:13:36

not being afraid to make a mistake.

0:13:36 – 0:13:38

I think the problem here is that there is a pretty significant

opaqueness or like lack

0:13:38 – 0:13:47

of clarity about what are the actual risks of engaging with

technology.

0:13:47 – 0:13:52

And I think that really comes out of the conversation, like people

really are afraid to mess with

0:13:52 – 0:13:58

or mess up, but they don’t really know what will happen.

0:13:58 – 0:14:00

But they feel like it will be really, really upsetting.

0:14:00 – 0:14:04

It will be a really huge issue if I make a mistake, I might lose all

of my money, right?

0:14:04 – 0:14:10

But in actuality, like if you do not engage with another human being

for the most part,

But in actuality, like if you do not engage with another human being

for the most part,

0:14:10 – 0:14:18

like that probably will not happen.

0:14:18 – 0:14:21

If you’re just on Google, on YouTube, on Facebook, like the chances of

losing all of your life

0:14:21 – 0:14:27

savings are pretty slim.

0:14:27 – 0:14:30

But to build that confidence and to know when you might or might not

lose all of your life

0:14:30 – 0:14:35

savings is really important.

0:14:35 – 0:14:38

And I think it’s definitely like a discourse thing.

0:14:38 – 0:14:42

People are afraid of something, but they don’t really know what

they’re afraid of.

0:14:42 – 0:14:46

And this creates a sort of paralysis.

0:14:46 – 0:14:52

And I remember when we were initially talking about this, I kept

thinking, well, I actually

0:14:52 – 0:14:59

never framed digital literacy in that way.

0:14:59 – 0:15:01

But it is interesting that you do, because that makes a lot of sense

looking back on

0:15:01 – 0:15:05

how people in my group talked about their experiences with technology.

0:15:05 – 0:15:12

Because I was thinking there was one individual who said I get the

sense, and I think it was

0:15:12 – 0:15:17

the same one you actually mentioned, but I get the sense that

everybody, or younger people,

0:15:17 – 0:15:24

learn how to use the internet by experimenting.

0:15:24 – 0:15:28

And a lot of the times, and a lot of the stories I was being told,

maybe not the banking one,

0:15:28 – 0:15:33

because I kind of agree with them to an extent, because banking is a

little more serious,

0:15:33 – 0:15:37

and I’m a little on their side there.

0:15:37 – 0:15:41

But things like Word documents, or losing access to documents, I work

with documents

0:15:41 – 0:15:48

quite frequently.

0:15:48 – 0:15:50

And when I was being told these stories, I was like, well, we can back

up documents.

0:15:50 – 0:15:55

There’s ways to back up documents, so if you want to try something,

and you want to experiment,

0:15:55 – 0:16:02

and you do lose it, you have a copy, it’s saved.

0:16:02 – 0:16:07

But I do get that fear that they’re talking about, because I also live

with, let’s put

0:16:07 – 0:16:12

quotes on it, but older adults who have told me the same thing.

0:16:12 – 0:16:15

I’m going like, mom, you can try to do this thing on your iPhone that

you’ve seen me doing.

0:16:15 – 0:16:21

I don’t want to tell you how to do it right away.

0:16:21 – 0:16:23

I want you to try it, play with it, see what you learn.

0:16:23 – 0:16:28

And the response I was getting is, I’m afraid of making a mistake.

0:16:28 – 0:16:32

So it’s really interesting, because when I kept saying that

commonality of I don’t want

0:16:32 – 0:16:36

to make a mistake, or I’m afraid I’m going to delete something.

0:16:36 – 0:16:40

And I think your way of framing digital literacy is maybe how we have

to approach digital literacy,

0:16:40 – 0:16:45

is how do we get rid of that fear of we’re going to make a mistake?

0:16:45 – 0:16:48

What are the safeguards we can put in place to protect our data, to

protect whatever we’re

0:16:48 – 0:16:54

afraid of losing, or making a mistake of, so that we are confident we

can go forward?

0:16:54 – 0:17:02

In Concordia, the coordinator of Engage Center for Research at

Concordia, Eric Craven, holds

0:17:02 – 0:17:11

a lot of interesting workshops with groups of older adults in our

offices at Concordia.

0:17:11 – 0:17:18

He calls them media jams.

0:17:18 – 0:17:21

And for the last year, I’ve been participating in those workshops.

0:17:21 – 0:17:27

And he told me, when I started, the one rule I have with these

workshops is that no one

0:17:27 – 0:17:33

is allowed to disqualify themselves before trying something.

0:17:33 – 0:17:36

And I thought that was a really powerful idea.

0:17:36 – 0:17:39

And obviously, it’s in a controlled environment.

0:17:39 – 0:17:40

We’re in a group, we’re trying stuff, and we’re doing really cool

things like making

0:17:40 – 0:17:45

memes, making games, making short videos.

0:17:45 – 0:17:48

It’s not like banking, obviously, but it’s in this more playful

environment, like playing

0:17:48 – 0:17:53

with technology, that you sort of build that confidence to not mess

up, essentially, or

0:17:53 – 0:17:59

actually, no, you’re just willing to mess up, right, willing to make a

mistake.

0:17:59 – 0:18:03

And I think that’s important, but it needs to be built up in an

environment where you

0:18:03 – 0:18:09

feel safe, obviously, and not while you’re dealing with your online

banking.

0:18:09 – 0:18:14

No, no, but I like that, though, it brings up the quote, there’s a

quote by Julia Child

0:18:14 – 0:18:23

and I’m not going to say it right, but it’s something like, you can’t

cook unless you’re

0:18:23 – 0:18:28

okay with failing.

0:18:28 – 0:18:29

And I butchered that quote, but how much it applies to the digital

literacy and a lot

0:18:29 – 0:18:35

of what I think is being said by the people we spoke to in these

groups.

0:18:35 – 0:18:41

I also think that relates quite a lot to, you know, there was a lot of

deflection to

I also think that relates quite a lot to, you know, there was a lot of

deflection to

0:18:41 – 0:18:50

the younger people and them needing to learn it and kind of, I don’t

need to learn this

0:18:50 – 0:18:54

or this isn’t really my problem, I don’t know if anyone else kind of

felt the same or saw

0:18:54 – 0:18:59

those relationships, would love to hear any thoughts on that.

0:18:59 – 0:19:07

The environment that the it stood out to me when you mentioned the

environment that was

0:19:07 – 0:19:14

created to go about these workshops, and I agree with the powerful

statement that was

0:19:14 – 0:19:19

almost self assuring to everybody there and could enable them to

engage and like go about

0:19:19 – 0:19:25

the process of play in a way where they’re not like doubting

themselves and shutting

0:19:25 – 0:19:30

down.

0:19:30 – 0:19:31

And it brings me back to, interestingly, kind of an offside

connection, perhaps, but Donald

0:19:31 – 0:19:39

Winnicott, the psychoanalyst, who has done a lot of work on attachment

theory has this

0:19:39 – 0:19:47

concept of the holding environment, which describes like a physical

and emotional safety

0:19:47 – 0:19:53

that would allow a child or an adult in therapy to explore and grow

without fear.

0:19:53 – 0:19:58

And so these concepts are interesting, I think, because at the core of

engaging various people

And so these concepts are interesting, I think, because at the core of

engaging various people

0:19:58 – 0:20:05

engaging with technology, or things that are new and unfamiliar.

0:20:05 – 0:20:11

Even Megan, as you described with your mother, there’s and with so

many sentiments that we’ve

0:20:11 – 0:20:16

seen, there’s a lot of people who don’t know, like me, perhaps their

attachment with technology

0:20:16 – 0:20:21

is like, unfamiliar, a little bit scared a little bit, they’re not

sure about themselves

0:20:21 – 0:20:27

and how they’re engaging.

0:20:27 – 0:20:28

And so the attachment with it and the uncertainty around how they are

perceiving technology,

0:20:28 – 0:20:37

if it’s fearful, it could cause them to, again, perhaps even like

avoid the process fully

0:20:37 – 0:20:43

and avoid and disengage with it out of overwhelm, versus somebody who

is kind of helping somebody

0:20:43 – 0:20:51

come to a positive sort of growth mindset of just like exploring and

playing without

0:20:51 – 0:20:59

being overcome with fear, that would indicate an environment where

they’re able to have

0:20:59 – 0:21:04

an attachment with technology that isn’t fully based in, like fear and

disengaging and avoiding,

0:21:04 – 0:21:11

and offloading perhaps on to somebody else.

0:21:11 – 0:21:14

So it’s interesting, I just bring that up because I think in

dissecting affective harms,

0:21:14 – 0:21:20

and like, ultimately at the core, humans relationships and attachments

to technology and how they’re

0:21:20 – 0:21:28

interacting with it based on their feelings that are underlying.

0:21:28 – 0:21:33

It’s interesting how that sort of like core relationship with

technology can determine

0:21:33 – 0:21:38

how people operate with, around or however they so choose with

technology, and it comes

0:21:38 – 0:21:48

down to like a very human, like a core baseline human sort of

emotional attachment that and

0:21:48 – 0:21:56

like emotions that we’re all kind of feeling.

0:21:56 – 0:22:01

And again, like a common thread as humans, like there’s these

affective dimensions, fear

0:22:01 – 0:22:09

and uncertainty, it’s underlying so much of what we’re kind of talking

about.

0:22:09 – 0:22:16

So I think that’s an interesting, yeah, a little ramble about how I’m

kind of connecting

0:22:16 – 0:22:22

these things.

0:22:22 – 0:22:23

But yeah.

0:22:23 – 0:22:24

Maybe to connect what you were saying to an example from the podcast,

we were talking

0:22:24 – 0:22:33

about building confidence in a playful environment, but there’s also

like sometimes you have to

0:22:33 – 0:22:37

build that confidence in a situation where you do not have the choice

to.

0:22:37 – 0:22:40

I mean, there was a great story, I think it’s from Megan, who had to

like call so many people

0:22:40 – 0:22:47

to finally get a solution.

0:22:47 – 0:22:50

And to me, I was listening to that story and like that is digital

literacy.

0:22:50 – 0:22:54

Obviously, you have to pick up the phone and call human beings.

0:22:54 – 0:22:57

It’s not literally on the computer, but so much of digital literacy is

just dealing with

0:22:57 – 0:23:02

bureaucracy.

0:23:02 – 0:23:03

If you know, I had a data leak at my bank and someone stole my

identity, that is a clear

0:23:03 – 0:23:10

example of data harm, right?

0:23:10 – 0:23:12

Well, what do I had to do is just call the bank five or six times to

get the fraudulent

0:23:12 – 0:23:17

card canceled.

0:23:17 – 0:23:19

And I didn’t realize it in the moment, but then I was like, oh, wow,

that was digital

0:23:19 – 0:23:23

literacy.

0:23:23 – 0:23:24

It’s like picking up the phone and calling the bank.

0:23:24 – 0:23:26

And it’s exactly what was doing.

0:23:26 – 0:23:29

And I think in that situation, I don’t know if he saw it as digital

literacy, but I hope

0:23:29 – 0:23:33

he did, or maybe he’s listening right now, I hope now he does.

0:23:33 – 0:23:37

But that’s a perfect example of not being afraid to mess up.

0:23:37 – 0:23:41

And that happens in a situation where he doesn’t have the choice to,

right?

0:23:41 – 0:23:44

There’s a situation, there’s a problem that needs to be solved and,

you know, have to

0:23:44 – 0:23:49

pick up the phone and try.

0:23:49 – 0:23:50

So there’s these two things, either you’re forced to learn, or you can

just try to do

0:23:50 – 0:23:55

it in an environment where you already feel comfortable.

0:23:55 – 0:24:00

And I just want to add in there, because, you know, I really loved

actually chatting

0:24:00 – 0:24:04

with him because he had a lot to say about the scam story.

0:24:04 – 0:24:07

And it was his idea, really, to begin our podcast recording by sharing

stories.

0:24:07 – 0:24:13

He really wanted to do that.

0:24:13 – 0:24:14

That was a large reason.

0:24:14 – 0:24:15

And I hope he doesn’t mind me saying that on why he wanted to do the

podcast co-production

0:24:15 – 0:24:20

option in the first place.

0:24:20 – 0:24:22

But what you bring up, Francis, is really interesting because I don’t

think he viewed

0:24:22 – 0:24:26

the whole experience at all as an example of digital literacy.

0:24:26 – 0:24:31

And to me, it really brings attention to this idea that I think

there’s two different perceptions

0:24:31 – 0:24:37

of digital literacy going on.

0:24:37 – 0:24:39

I think there’s this perception, which I do agree with you, it’s the

method of learning.

0:24:39 – 0:24:42

What do I do when this problem happens to me online or when similar

problems happen

0:24:42 – 0:24:47

to me online?

0:24:47 – 0:24:49

And I’m not negating the fact that you will feel scared, you will feel

uncertain, especially

0:24:49 – 0:24:54

the more problems you run into, especially identity fraud, because in

your case, I would

0:24:54 – 0:24:57

just about panic.

0:24:57 – 0:24:58

I don’t know what I would have done.

0:24:58 – 0:25:01

But it’s the process of learning a methodology of this is who I can

reach out to.

0:25:01 – 0:25:06

Whereas in my recording, I heard a lot of, you know, there’s no manual

for me to figure

0:25:06 – 0:25:11

out how to deal with this precise issue.

0:25:11 – 0:25:16

There was a couple of people who went to courses at their local

library and said they learned

0:25:16 – 0:25:20

a lot, but there was still stuff they didn’t know.

0:25:20 – 0:25:23

And one of those things being is who do I reach out to?

0:25:23 – 0:25:26

Who knows how to fix this problem?

0:25:26 – 0:25:28

And who can tell me how to fix this problem for next time?

0:25:28 – 0:25:32

And I just, again, it’s that concept of digital literacy that’s just

really elusive to me.

0:25:32 – 0:25:37

And the more we talk about it, the more I’m just really fascinated to

like untangle it.

0:25:37 – 0:25:41

Just because we talk a lot about digital literacy, I think in Canada,

when it comes to young

0:25:41 – 0:25:46

people, older adults, what have you.

0:25:46 – 0:25:49

But that actual definition of what is digital literacy, I think is

maybe not as determined

0:25:49 – 0:25:56

or as we would like it to be.

0:25:56 – 0:25:58

And I think it does vary across age and how you grew up too, because

manuals and courses

0:25:58 – 0:26:04

are things that belong to let’s say the technologies of 20 years ago

and maybe not now.

0:26:04 – 0:26:12

I did want to make a last note to Jeanelle about overwhelming too,

because feelings of

0:26:12 – 0:26:19

being overwhelmed when using technologies, that was a, like I said,

that was a big thing

0:26:19 – 0:26:23

I think we both found in our recordings.

0:26:23 – 0:26:26

But that was almost always coupled with, you know what, how is the

youth going to handle

0:26:26 – 0:26:32

this?

0:26:32 – 0:26:33

We got to talk about that.

0:26:33 – 0:26:34

It almost came hand in hand.

0:26:34 – 0:26:37

And there was something, and I really like, I haven’t heard of that

theorist, but the

0:26:37 – 0:26:40

idea of play and being overwhelmed and this idea of digital literacy,

it almost makes

0:26:40 – 0:26:46

me feel that we have to have like a good form of redress here, isn’t a

course or telling

0:26:46 – 0:26:55

them to go play, it’s almost setting up both in the digital context

and the real context,

0:26:55 – 0:27:00

like a sandbox, to put someone in and be like, here are your

parameters and here’s how far

0:27:00 – 0:27:05

you can play and go wild.

0:27:05 – 0:27:07

And I find that interesting, because immediately when you were talking

about it and Francis

0:27:07 – 0:27:11

was talking about it, I was thinking, it’s a sandbox, like a

developer’s sandbox where

0:27:11 – 0:27:16

I can go make games, like Francis was talking about, and it’s just,

it’s very interesting.

0:27:16 – 0:27:22

But yeah, this cognitive offloading was also very, very interesting

too.

0:27:22 – 0:27:28

And the funny thing is, I remember when we were initially having the

conversation about

0:27:28 – 0:27:32

how we want to do the podcast, it was Francis who brought that up,

because I just remember

0:27:32 – 0:27:36

sitting there going, oh, I don’t know what themes to pull out of my

group yet, I’ve been

0:27:36 – 0:27:42

listening to the recordings over and over, I’m not sure what I can

pull out.

0:27:42 – 0:27:45

And I remember, like Francis, you got the cognitive offloading almost

immediately.

0:27:45 – 0:27:50

And yeah, I just, maybe if you wanted to talk about that a little

more, but I know that

0:27:50 – 0:27:57

we, we, the one big thing was how it related to the very thing we all

do research on, which

0:27:57 – 0:28:02

is digital ageism.

0:28:02 – 0:28:03

Oh, okay, yeah.

0:28:03 – 0:28:06

This will be very short, but I think it’s just on a very basic level.

0:28:06 – 0:28:11

Earlier we were talking about how a lot of the participants were sort

of deferring the

0:28:11 – 0:28:17

harm to the next generation or like younger adults.

0:28:17 – 0:28:21

And I think this, just this sort of discourse or the fact that this is

sort of an immediate

0:28:21 – 0:28:29

way of thinking just shows that the world we live in is sort of

digitally ageist, right?

0:28:29 – 0:28:35

Like the fact that every one who sees themselves as like an older

adult has sort of the impetus

0:28:35 – 0:28:41

to sort of deflect the potential risks of the digital world onto

younger adults or being

0:28:41 – 0:28:49

afraid for younger adults instead of being afraid for them is very

symptomatic of this

0:28:49 – 0:28:54

idea that the digital world is not for them, right?

0:28:54 – 0:28:58

And I think that is like, we see that a lot and it connects well also

with the idea that

0:28:58 – 0:29:04

sort of you have to be comfortable with technology and be willing to

try to sort of feel safe

0:29:04 – 0:29:12

with technology.

0:29:12 – 0:29:14

And so, yeah, I think this is on a very basic level.

0:29:14 – 0:29:17

It’s just the digital world is, has not been designed for older

adults.

0:29:17 – 0:29:21

So obviously, for most people do not feel sort of comfortable in this

world because

0:29:21 – 0:29:26

it was, they were not included from the get-go and hopefully it’s

changing right now, right?

0:29:26 – 0:29:32

But that’s what we’re trying to do.

0:29:32 – 0:29:36

Well, look, it’s interesting because Janelle, you had, I don’t know

the names actually of

0:29:36 – 0:29:43

them.

0:29:43 – 0:29:44

I’m trying to think.

0:29:44 – 0:29:45

But you had a couple of people who were talking about that in your

group.

0:29:45 – 0:29:49

You had one lady and I remember from the recordings, she said, like,

it’s not because I can’t,

0:29:49 – 0:29:55

I don’t want to, in some cases, engage with technology and not because

I’m not interested,

0:29:55 – 0:30:02

but also because I want the choice to have analog options versus

digital options.

0:30:02 – 0:30:08

And I think if I remember right, it was in the context of concerts and

concert tickets

0:30:08 – 0:30:14

and to some extent I do agree with that actually.

0:30:14 – 0:30:19

You know, being in a venue and you could easily give paper tickets to

another member of your

0:30:19 – 0:30:25

party who’s with you so they could show it if they needed to.

0:30:25 – 0:30:28

But with digital technologies, it’s a little more difficult now,

right?

But with digital technologies, it’s a little more difficult now,

right?

0:30:28 – 0:30:34

You’re right.

0:30:34 – 0:30:35

Yeah.

0:30:35 – 0:30:36

And that, I guess the, yeah, the grievance with having those options

taken away were

0:30:36 – 0:30:41

for sure expressed and, and yeah, it just feels, I guess, upon their

sentiments that

0:30:41 – 0:30:48

sort of more narrow kind of way that they’re being forced to

participate in the things

0:30:48 – 0:30:55

that they enjoy, I guess that’s from the perspective that again, you

brought up, definitely a concern.

0:30:55 – 0:31:04

And I guess maybe the one thing I’ll just add, this is the last bit

for me.

0:31:04 – 0:31:09

So I’d be interested in hearing if there’s any other threads people

want to, want to,

0:31:09 – 0:31:13

you know, tie up here before we kind of end this.

0:31:13 – 0:31:18

But it was also interesting too, because for all of the, I don’t want

to say complaints

0:31:18 – 0:31:22

because they weren’t complaints, but all of the concerns people

brought up in our groups,

0:31:22 – 0:31:27

there were a lot of equally very positive people who talked a lot

about, you know, redress

0:31:27 – 0:31:34

and very grassroots, I think, solutions to technological concerns that

they had, you

0:31:34 – 0:31:41

know, going around door to door, how do you feel about, you know, in

person delivery services

0:31:41 – 0:31:46

being taken away?

0:31:46 – 0:31:47

And while it’s not a directly technological issue, I think it’s a very

interesting one

0:31:47 – 0:31:52

that is being mediated by technology.

0:31:52 – 0:31:56

But it was just really great to hear like as much as they had

concerns, like they were

0:31:56 – 0:31:59

also thinking about how can we do what works for us to kind of make it

better.

0:31:59 – 0:32:07

And I think we need more of those positive people involved in this

conversation about

0:32:07 – 0:32:13

ageism and technology.

0:32:13 – 0:32:15

Yeah, that’s a great point.

0:32:15 – 0:32:17

And going off of that, one thing that he kept reiterating, which was

really, like I admire

0:32:17 – 0:32:23

was just his sense of childlike, how do I say, like his sense of like

childlike openness

0:32:23 – 0:32:35

to play and to want to be a part of what he kind of framed as like the

good guys who always

0:32:35 – 0:32:45

win in the end and wanting to be a part of a, again, grassroots

community oriented sort

0:32:45 – 0:32:55

of movement that is centered around connectivity and being for just

like maintaining humanity

0:32:55 – 0:33:04

and like his, it’s interesting in talking about like literacy and the

sandbox, that

0:33:04 – 0:33:11

sort of sandbox concept and talking about play, he’s somebody who is

totally rooted

0:33:11 – 0:33:16

towards playing and like trying to get people together and I guess

playing in the sandbox

0:33:16 – 0:33:23

in order to find solutions.

0:33:23 – 0:33:25

And so I think that was an interesting point amidst and it was

refreshing to amidst like,

0:33:25 – 0:33:30

you know, there’s very real, again, expressions of harm and fear and

so much more that have

0:33:30 – 0:33:41

come out, but he definitely has fidelity to a lighthearted, like

grassroots community

0:33:41 – 0:33:49

oriented way of sort of in a way delivering redress through community

engagement across

0:33:49 – 0:33:57

ages. And so he has his own sort of like leadership, I guess, method

in what he plans to do, again,

0:33:57 – 0:34:06

with what he presented as something he’s a part of called Eye Warrior

as well. So it

0:34:06 – 0:34:13

was a nice one to offset, I guess, a lot of the more deeper

existential sort of disenfranchising

0:34:13 – 0:34:25

sort of thoughts that were and experiences that were being shared. And

it also connects,

0:34:25 – 0:34:34

I guess, to the concept of that Francis brought up, like data

consciousness and amidst many

0:34:34 – 0:34:44

people and their admissions about their understanding that if they are

engaging in a certain way

0:34:44 – 0:34:52

in their data, datafied environments, then they could be faced with

certain consequences

0:34:52 – 0:34:57

and restrictions and whatnot. Those are very real. And I think I’m

trying to remember what

0:34:57 – 0:35:07

Francis brought up our last meeting, but it was a really powerful

question that was about,

0:35:07 – 0:35:14

I mean, if in listening to what people are expressing, like what I

think was a question

0:35:14 – 0:35:23

around like, are we in an authoritarian state if people are expressing

or I’m trying to

0:35:23 – 0:35:32

really I think I Yeah, like, yeah, sorry, I don’t want to take it from

you. But it was

0:35:32 – 0:35:38

a really powerful like question that you posed. So what I was saying

is in relation to people

0:35:38 – 0:35:49

being aware that their data has agency and that other human beings can

take advantage

0:35:49 – 0:35:55

of them by using their data. And a lot of those conversations were

related to sort of

0:35:55 – 0:36:01

the government and fear of what the government could do with your

data. But I was as I was

0:36:01 – 0:36:08

saying, I don’t think I want to have that in the podcast, because it’s

a bit too invites

saying, I don’t think I want to have that in the podcast, because it’s

a bit too invites

0:36:08 – 0:36:12

conspiracy a bit too much. I think you’re right. Yeah. It’s fine to

sort of talk about

0:36:12 – 0:36:21

that in a more academic way, but in a more like, casual chat. But

you’re right, we don’t

0:36:21 – 0:36:28

have to. Like, I think we’ve covered like different bases that were

pretty well represented

0:36:28 – 0:36:34

in the podcast, too. So it is a good place to end on, I think. Because

they are questions,

0:36:34 – 0:36:42

even though we don’t want to go into them today, but they are

questions I think, maybe

0:36:42 – 0:36:47

are worth exploring in future workshops and future academic research.

Yeah. But I think

0:36:47 – 0:36:55

overall, you’re like you positing the concept of like, data

consciousness and how that still

0:36:55 – 0:37:02

kind of has shown itself and like people in it’s come out in the

podcast and in sentiments.

0:37:02 – 0:37:11

And generally the fact that exploring that concept more through the

project could be

0:37:11 – 0:37:17

very prevalent in terms of how people are engaged with understanding

data around them

0:37:17 – 0:37:24

and like what what the implications are, and in like different

capacities. So yeah, I like

0:37:24 – 0:37:31

that word data consciousness. Data consciousness, and maybe that’s a

good word to end on. And

0:37:31 – 0:37:37

we can, we can focus on that for our next workshops, which will be

which will be happening

0:37:37 – 0:37:42

in September, not to shameless plug to whoever’s listening. But if you

are interested and around

0:37:42 – 0:37:48

the London, Ontario region around that time, you should stay tuned and

sign up. We’d love

0:37:48 – 0:37:55

to have you.

0:37:55 – 0:38:02